Transcript

Candice Reed 00:00

Summer, summer, summertime.

Tim Haley 00:04

Yes!

Candice Reed 00:06

This is Leveraging Latitude: Cultivating a Full Life in the Law. And we are your hosts, Candice Reed…

Tim Haley 00:13

…And Tim Haley.

Candice Reed 00:15

Please join us on our journey as we discover how to leverage the hard work of becoming a lawyer to achieving success and leading a rich and fulfilling life in the law.

Candice Reed 00:30

Tim, it’s summertime.

Tim Haley 00:32

Not quite, we got a couple days, but I’m already excited. So let’s do it.

Candice Reed 00:37

I mean, the last day of school is over. We are fully into summertime mode in my house. It was a celebration. That last day of school, my seven-year-old did online school from home all this past year. We were really ready for summer this year.

Tim Haley 00:55

You’re ready for it to be over. I was lucky, we got to be in person at school for everything except for that Thanksgiving-too-a-little-bit-after-Christmas period and the last day of school was, it was exciting, but it was hard too because my kids were… they love it. They just love being around other kids. We’ll have to figure out how to do that now.

Candice Reed 01:17

I’ll admit, in addition to the cheers that took place on the last day of school, there were also some tears from Mommy because I realized that I’m never going to have the opportunity to be with my daughter every single day and watch her learn and struggle and triumph and have lunch with her every day. So realizing that we were shutting down the classroom in our house was also a little hard. She’s totally pumped. I mean, she’s just ready to get into the pool. She made a list of all the things that she wants to do this summer.

Tim Haley 02:02

Have you made your list yet?

Candice Reed 02:03

I’ve not made my list. My list sometimes become her list, right? Her list is my list.

Tim Haley 02:09

Her list grows.

Candice Reed 02:10

She put on there, let’s see, “wake up at 7:26 every morning,” which I’m totally on board for that, but it hasn’t happened yet.

Tim Haley 02:17

I’m okay too. But why 7:26?

Candice Reed 02:19

I don’t know. Some things you don’t question, the mind of a 7-year-old. Go swimming, have picnics, have fun, fun, fun, fun. How many was that? Was that five? So far we’re doing pretty good, but we’re getting ready to go on a family vacation, so lots of plans. What’s on your list? What are you planning to do this summer?

Tim Haley 02:40

Fun, fun, fun, fun. So if you’re at two funs out of five so far my goal is to get three funs out of five just to…

Candice Reed 02:46

Who said I was at two out of five? I’m hitting five every day, Tim. What are you talking about? I’m the fun mom.

Tim Haley 02:52

Okay, fine. Well, then I must be the not fun dad. I get those lists, I’m like, “Nope, can’t do that. Nope, nope, nope. Okay. You can do that.” We’ll have some trips. I know we’ve put off seeing some family this past year that we’re going to go catch up with. I don’t know why I need to go to Florida in the middle of the summer, but apparently I need to go to Florida in the middle of the summer.

Candice Reed 03:17

You do? We are not taking a beach trip this year, and I’m really sad about it. That’s probably my idea of a perfect summer day is sitting on the beach with a really good book, watching my kid play in the sand, maybe doing a little body surfing with her, to cool off, and then capping off the afternoon with a drink that has an umbrella in it or something like that. I’ve never actually had that perfect day, but that’s my vision of a perfect day.

Tim Haley 03:50

The beach for me is hot and especially in the summertime, but it’s okay, because you’re right, the ocean’s there and there’s plenty of stuff to do. And I do enjoy throwing a football or whatever with my son and watching my daughter swim, and that’s a lot of fun. It’s good. That’ll be later in the summer though. That’ll be more towards right before school starts back up again.

Candice Reed 04:12

So our plan is to drive from Nashville, Tennessee, all the way to Rapid City, South Dakota, for our family’s summer vacation this year.

Tim Haley 04:28

That’s great. That’s exciting. I’m excited. That’s fantastic.

Candice Reed 04:32

That is great, yes.

Tim Haley 04:34

There’s so many interesting places that you can stop along the way too if you wanted to.

Candice Reed 04:41

I know that the Corn Palace and of course Mount Rushmore are on the list. Bear country, something about bears is there too. I just know that I’m a little, how shall I say? Anxious about multiple 8-, 9-, 10-hour days in the car. But I hear that there’s value in that too.

Tim Haley 05:03

I’ve driven across South Dakota and it’s a beautiful state and there’s great people there. And if anyone’s listening from South Dakota, thanks for listening and we enjoy it. But South Dakota is a big state. It doesn’t look that big. It’s a big state. There’s a lot of hours in the car there.

Candice Reed 05:20

That’s what we’re planning on. But I enlisted the help and the sage advice of the mom lawyers from the MothersEsquire group to help me plan for the car trip itself. And they were so generous with their suggestions for how to maximize the fun on a car trip with a seven, almost 8-year-old. And I do feel more empowered to take this trip now that I know snacks are key. That’s one thing that I learned.

Tim Haley 05:58

Absolutely.

Candice Reed 05:59

And to parse out all of the fun car activities judiciously. Don’t just throw them all at your kid right at the beginning of the trip, but dole out one activity book or Play-Doh or sticker books every couple of hours.

Tim Haley 06:20

What’s your feeling on movies or whatever in the car, for the car trip for the kids? I mean, there’s some people that enthusiastically are all for it and some people are the other way.

Candice Reed 06:31

I, of course, enthusiastically all for it, but I also know that only gets us so far. So just like me, my daughter can sit through maybe one movie or she actually prefers multiple shows. Maybe she feels like she’s getting more bang for her buck there, but that’s only going to get us through a couple of hours. And she’s old enough now that she’s not really sleeping in the car because she wants to be playing, doing something. I mean, thankfully we are a family that loves music, and so there’s lots of car dancing and singing. My husband’s superpower is coming up with the perfect playlist for any occasion, and so he comes up with our playlist and we rock out.

Tim Haley 07:28

Man, I’m so jealous. That’s awesome. That’s an awesome superpower.

Candice Reed 07:33

It is an awesome superpower. I mean, parties, get togethers, car trips, I mean, you name it, he’s got it. He’s a lawyer, but he would tell you that probably his natural gifts would have made him an excellent DJ.

Tim Haley 07:51

That’s great.

Candice Reed 07:51

That might be his retirement plan. I’m not sure, but –

Tim Haley 07:54

That could be fun too. Pick up some shifts on the side. Why not?

Candice Reed 08:02

What do you like to do in the summer?

Tim Haley 08:02

I do a lot of swimming in the summer, a lot of days at the pool, a lot of hiking, especially if the weather is not too bad. I like going, we have a lot of great state parks around here, but I also venturing out in the Midwest. One of the underrated things about being in the Midwest is that you’re really not that far from anywhere. I mean, we’re a long way from South Dakota, but in Nashville you can get to Atlanta pretty easy and you can get to Cincinnati pretty easy. And I can get to Chicago pretty easy and Pittsburgh and we can venture out and do all sorts of different things, whether we’re hunting for urban adventures or even something more rural. Northern Michigan is pretty remote. You got to want to go there. Nobody is passing through because there’s no way to pass through. You can get pretty remote, pretty quick from where I live. And that’s a lot of fun, even if it’s just a 3-day weekend.

Candice Reed 08:56

What is your best summertime memory or the best family trip that you’ve ever taken, either as an adult or a kid?

Tim Haley 09:04

That’s a great question. When I was growing up, we didn’t travel a whole lot as a family. I was one of five. So our vacations were mostly seeing family. I do remember as a kid going to Minneapolis one trip and it was my dad, my sister and my brother. It was just four of us, not everybody. But I just remember that road trip was just so much fun. And my little brother was just goofy in the car. And we got there and we didn’t really have any agenda. We just went hiking and hung out. And my gosh, I had a free breakfast at the hotel. Do you remember as a kid the first time you had that? That was amazing, right? It’s like, “Oh, they give you food too. This is awesome.”

Candice Reed 09:48

That’s so funny. I don’t remember that. But that is one of the things that my daughter talks about like, “Are we staying at a hotel?” And we’ve been staying in a lot of Airbnb places through the last year and the pandemic just to avoid being around a lot of other people. And it’s always so disappointing to her when we’re not in a hotel because she likes the amenities, like the free breakfast.

Tim Haley 10:14

I mean, I see it with my own kids, but even I remember back, you walk down into the breakfast room, you’re like, “They have waffles. They have waffles.” So those are, I mean, little things, right? The little things that you remember that in the moment you don’t think anything of. And then 30 years later I’m like, “Waffles.”

Candice Reed 10:37

It’s funny thinking back on some of the best summer vacations. I wonder how I was perceiving the trip at the time. I remember going to Williamsburg with my mom and my stepdad and my stepbrother and in my adult memory, that was such a great trip, but I’m pretty sure that I probably complained about how long it took to get there or how hot it was or how hungry I was. And my poor parents had to tolerate my discontent. But in my adult memory, that was a wonderful time. I guess that’s what you’re hoping your kids remember, it’s the general aura of the trip and not those specific details.

Tim Haley 11:28

It’s funny because you end up, whether it’s a really positive or really negative experience, I mean, those are the stories you remember. I remember going to a wedding one summer. I was in law school, I think. The wedding was in Maine, and it was one of those things where it was like one thing after another, after another, another went wrong. Like, my flight’s delayed, I missed the connection. Oh my gosh, I landed at two in the morning and I drive through the night to get to wherever we’re going and arrive just in time to go to the whatever lunch. I mean, it was just one thing after another, the whole thing that just… the trip that fell apart, basically. But I look back at that I’m like, “That was a lot of fun.” It’s funny how in the moment you probably were miserable, but looking back you’re like, “We did it. It was good.”

Candice Reed 12:15

And some things I like to do now just because I enjoy doing them as a kid and I have nice memories of it. And so I hope that my daughter will then also have nice memories of it. So like I mentioned body surfing earlier. I remember my dad who lived in Florida for a period of years getting in the water with me and showing me how to ride the waves. And that was such, or that is such a great, fun, comforting memory for me that whenever we are at the beach, I make sure I do that now with my own daughter and have fun. I mean, who doesn’t love saltwater up the nose every now and then, right?

Tim Haley 12:59

That’s right. I remember a similar vein. My dad and I, we’d watch baseball games usually on TV, but if there was a stadium we’d go. And in Indy we have a minor league stadium and I’d go to that plenty as a kid, but you remember the first time you walk out on a real major league baseball stadium and it’s just this giant open green patch of grass in this otherwise concrete city and the sights and the smells or whatever. I try to get to a couple games a year, wherever I am. And it’s funny if I’m traveling for work, even especially at West Coast, because the time zones are such that it’s seven o’clock at night out west, nothing’s happening on the East Coast. So why not? I’ll go to a Dodgers game. Let’s do it. It’s kind of fun. It’s good.

Candice Reed 13:45

Can you explain to me why it is that hot dogs only taste good when you’re eating them at a ballpark?

Tim Haley 13:56

Yes, I can, but I won’t. No, I have no idea.

Candice Reed 13:59

That’s my thing. It’s like I would never voluntarily eat a hot dog, except when I go to a ballpark and I’m watching a baseball game and then somehow a hot dog with ketchup and mustard is exactly what I want at that time.

Tim Haley 14:12

Hot dog, at least with mustard, we can disagree about the ketchup piece, but that’s okay.

Candice Reed 14:17

I’m from the South, Tim. We put ketchup on everything.

Tim Haley 14:20

Oh, man. All right. Well, thanks for listening to the last episode of Leveraging Latitude. No, I’m kidding.

Candice Reed 14:34

So all this talk about vacations, did you actually take vacations when you were working at the big law firm?

Tim Haley 14:36

I was just reminded of a story. I was working on a case, it was a litigation case and we were doing some scheduling conference, one of those mundane things. And the opposing counsel was on the phone and I was in the room of the partners in his office and two of us were on the call and the opposing counsel sheepishly admits that she’s going to be out on vacation for a couple of weeks later in the summer. And I remember she’s like, “Well, we can’t do it then because on vacation.” And you could tell she felt guilty about that. And the partner I was with, he is trying to be funny and it was funny. He goes, “Vacation, is that bigger than a bread box?” And we all laughed and kind of defused the situation or whatever, and we worked around it. But it’s one of those things that looking back on that experience now, honestly, I hadn’t thought of it since that day. But the fact that some people feel guilty about taking vacation and it’s such an important thing to do. And the fact that others feel guilty for not taking vacation and just power through. My wife will tell you though, to answer your question, straightly, that I never took a vacation at the firm.

Candice Reed 15:43

I think that’s pretty common. I know didn’t. When I was an associate at a large firm, I rarely took a vacation, or if I did and I’m dating myself here, I would take my laptop. I started to say, “Take my phone.” But let’s be honest, I probably had a Blackberry at that time, but not like a mini computer in my hand. But I felt like I had to be on all the time. And I remember feeling that same almost shame at leaving. You didn’t put an out of office email response on Outlook because you didn’t want anyone to know that you were actually out of the office. But I feel like with so much emphasis and conversation around attorney well-being in recent years, that we are getting better as lawyers about taking time off or out of the office to rest and connect with family or enjoy some hobbies, just revitalizing, recuperating, building up more reserves to get back in it and hit it hard when you are working. I mean, we know from research that that’s extremely important. I hope that the lawyers out there are planning on taking some time off this summer and enjoying some downtime.

Tim Haley 17:08

And don’t do what I call vacation, which is, “Maybe I’ll leave on a Thursday night and work all day Friday from wherever I am and just not be present wherever I am.” And then, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t work Saturday, so it must’ve been a vacation, right?” Don’t do that. That’s not good.

Candice Reed 17:23

That’s not a vacation. I mean, I think that there are studies that show that we need more than just a couple of hours of that downtime, at least occasionally in order to really… for the time off to really have that restorative effect on our psyche and emotional, mental and physical wellbeing, all of that.

Tim Haley 17:45

Especially after the last year and a half and before that even, I’m really looking forward to just getting out of my house going someplace else.

Candice Reed 17:54

So many of us are. This year, even more than years past, I think the world is ready for some time off, particularly when work and home have merged together this past year to where it’s hard to have those boundaries between when you are on and when you’re off. And so leaving and going somewhere, hopefully most people have the opportunity to do that now.

Tim Haley 18:29

Boundaries is another good word. Is that bigger than a bread box?

Candice Reed 18:32

Yes. That is bigger than a bread box.

Tim Haley 18:35

Yes, it is. No, especially for lawyers, it’s such a hard thing to do, and it’s a profession in some ways. It’s a lifestyle, but it’s also a calling for some people and separating out what’s good for you versus what’s good for your client. Well, most of the time what’s good for you is good for your client, especially in terms of sleep and taking care of yourself and taking a vacation, right? My wife’s going to listen to this and hold this tape and play it back to me over and over and over and over again.

Candice Reed 19:04

In my class, in the Thriving as a Lawyer class that I teach at the University of Tennessee College of Law, one of the articles we read, or the students read, is about whether a happy lawyer is a better lawyer. It’s an article by a friend and colleague of mine, Dan Bowling, who teaches at Duke University Law School. But the idea is does being happy — which we use that word as shorthand for overall high well-being — is being happy, does that make you a better lawyer? And I do think that it’s really important to include rest within that equation, that you can’t just go at a hundred miles an hour all the time without burning out or at least getting tired occasionally. And that that’s not a sign of weakness. But recognizing when you need a break is actually a sign of, I don’t know, maturity or growth. I don’t know. Not to call you out on that, Tim, I’m not referencing you specifically.

Tim Haley 20:10

Well, I mean, the reality is that I’m still learning. So there’s lots of stuff that I’m going to be better at next year than I was last year. And hopefully taking vacations is one of those things. Getting rest. Understanding the difference between working well and working smart. I didn’t say that right, but you know what I meant. It’s you can work, but is it productive? And you want to be as productive as you can all the time, and that’s ultimately the thing. But productivity is different than hours, and those are different things. And once you separate that out, you’re like, “Okay, I can be really productive on this and happy and have some time for my family or have some time to go to a ball game,” or whatever.

Candice Reed 20:52

I feel like this is the time when we say, okay, Tim, so what are you going to commit to do this summer?

Tim Haley 20:59

Oh gosh, I’m in therapy again, Candice.

Candice Reed 21:05

Let me just say that those kinds of questions come with a psychology degree. It’s like they hand you a list of questions when they hand you your diploma that you can pull out at any time, family get togethers, staff meetings, what have you, podcasts.

Tim Haley 22:20

Right. Good news, bad news guys. I have signed up for public therapy sessions for everyone to listen to. That’s, I guess, the bad news. The good news is this is free for me anyway.

Candice Reed 21:32

Right. This is subtitle of the podcast, Leveraging Latitude: Tim’s Public Therapy Sessions.

Tim Haley 21:34

Tim’s therapy. Right. No, I know. I mentioned we’re taking a trip to Florida. We’re trying to figure out what else to do. This year, I’m going to disappear. I’m going to go to the woods for a while, a couple days anyway, just to refresh. I don’t know when yet. I mean, the hard part is like, “Okay, I’ve got three kids, so we’re clearing around their schedules and school and okay, what’s open? What isn’t open?” And now most things are open up, but in March when you sit down to normally plan a summer, it was like, “Okay, well, what’s the summer going to look like? I have no clue.”

Candice Reed 22:07

I mean, that’s the other thing. Normally we would’ve had my daughter in several camps this summer so that she was doing something fun while we were working, and we have a couple lined up, but not what we would have had without COVID. So she’s here in the house while I’m also in the house, and my husband is also in the house, all working. And so it’s trying to find those moments in a day where we can inject that summertime fun for her and with her so that it doesn’t just feel like a total drag or so she’s not watching TV all day long.

Tim Haley 22:47

Going to have Stella co-host with us one episode. I think that’d be fun. We’ll let her ask all the questions.

Candice Reed 22:53

She likes jokes, so just be ready.

Tim Haley 22:53

Well, I’ve got some jokes.

Candice Reed 22:56

She likes to tell jokes. Now, whether they make sense or are actually funny, that’s questionable. But she does like the jokes.

Tim Haley 23:04

Well, I’m going to save up some of my best then for that episode.

Candice Reed 23:08

The cornier, the better.

Tim Haley 23:10

Oh, I got corny jokes. Those are the best kind.

Candice Reed 23:12

I figured you did. You’re a dad of three. I figured you had lots of good dad jokes. Those are her favorites.

Tim Haley 23:19

This is a true story. When I was practicing and there was a case I was on, it ended up… I had an attorney on the other end that wouldn’t call me back, and it was clear they were avoiding me. We needed cash, they didn’t have it for whatever reason. So it was like, “Just whatever.” I called and I tried to be like, “Hey, you need to… obviously per this agreement, you have to pay, pay us now,” and no response. And then I called the next week trying to be the mean lawyer, “Well, you’re going to force us to go to court,” or whatever. And of course, that didn’t work either. The next week what I did was I would come into the office every day and I’d look up a dumb joke and I’d call the voicemail and I’d leave the joke and that’s it. I wouldn’t even say who was calling. I did that every day for eight days in a row, and the attorney finally called me back and said, “Tim, stop doing that, it’s hilarious, but stop it.” It was just leaving a corny joke on the voicemail, just a daily reminder that she needed to get back to me.

Candice Reed 24:17

Were you able to resolve the matter?

Tim Haley 24:19

Yeah. It was one of those things where it was insurance company, it was just going through the process and there wasn’t an update because it was going through the process. But I was also on my end, the one in charge of making sure it got through the process.

Candice Reed 24:34

Best practice tip, look up corny jokes and leave them on opposing counsel’s voicemail until you get a response?

Tim Haley 24:41

Right. Only do that if you’re completely and a hundred percent solidly in the right.

Candice Reed 24:47

That’s such a dad move right there too. I recognize and honor that you just brought all of you to the table in that moment, and were problem solving with all of your skills and talents and experiences in that moment. So good for you.

Tim Haley 25:04

It’s like, “Well, what am I going to do? There’s no answer, but I’m supposed to follow up. So here we go.”

Candice Reed 25:12

I’m pretty sure on some private Facebook group somewhere, your opposing counsel was like, “Listen, take a load of this. This guy keeps leaving these jokes on my voicemail. How in the world should I take this?”

Tim Haley 25:27

The funny thing is, we got to be really good friends after that, and we’re still friends, so it was just hanging out when we were in town and even when we weren’t working on the same case. So it was good. It was a good relationship building moment that could have been a really bad moment.

Candice Reed 25:41

That’s great. That’s great. Well, to wrap up, do you have any parting words on enjoying the summer or maybe even surviving the summer with three kids at home? Or what are you most looking forward to here these next couple of months?

Tim Haley 26:04

Parting words?

Candice Reed 26:06

This is where you get really say smart stuff.

Tim Haley 26:07

White Claw, is that… No, I’m kidding.

Candice Reed 26:10

Oh, gosh.

Tim Haley 26:11

Teasing. I’m teasing. No, what I ended up doing last summer, which was really fun, and what I remember doing the memories of last summer is just sitting out on my back porch and waiting until it just got a little bit after dusk where it was, there’s still a little bit of light in the sky, but not a ton. And just watching the bats come out and start flying around overhead. That was so cool. And I want to do that again. You just take a moment and you realize… I’m in the of a city, and you look up and you realize that there’s nobody else that’s seeing that exact thing at that exact time, and it’s kind of a fun moment of humility, but it’s also a fun just noticing the world around you that I didn’t do for the 40 whatever years before then.

Candice Reed 27:02

There are definitely some lessons that have come from the last year that I hope I remember going forward. I was not expecting you to say bats. I thought for sure you were going to say lightning bugs.

Tim Haley 27:14

I love the bats.

Candice Reed 27:16

That’s what we say down here in the south. We know where you’re from, whether you say fireflies or lightning bugs. But that’s what we would see if we were to go out on our back porch near dusk. And it’s always fun to try to catch them.

Tim Haley 27:32

Plenty of lightning bugs here, but…

Candice Reed 27:35

So what do you say? Do you say fireflies or lightning bugs?

Tim Haley 27:38

Lightning bugs.

Candice Reed 27:39

Oh, really?

Tim Haley 27:40

Yeah. It’s always been lightning bugs here.

Candice Reed 27:41

I totally thought that was a southern thing.

Tim Haley 27:44

I thought fireflies was a southern thing, or maybe that’s… I don’t know. Shoot, we’re on this… We’re way out on this branch.

Candice Reed 27:50

There’s too many i’s in that word for it to be a southern thing.

Tim Haley 27:53

We are way far out on this branch. No, the fireflies were cool. I mean, I remember those as a kid, but now watching the bats, they’ve always been. Always been there, just never thought to look up.

Candice Reed 28:05

Very cool. Well, Tim, I hope you have a fabulous summer, and I do hope that you take some time off, whether it’s to hike in the woods or see a good ball game or just read a fun book. But I hope you enjoy it, and I hope you get to spend some time with your kids having fun.

Tim Haley 28:23

Thanks, Candice. And I guess-

Candice Reed 28:24

And I’ll be sure to pass along any of those corny jokes.

Tim Haley 28:26

Yes, please do. I’ll see you in our next session in a couple of weeks.

Candice Reed 28:30

Sounds good. Happy summer, everybody.

Tim Haley 28:33

Happy summer, everybody.

Tim Haley 28:39

Thank you for joining us today. If you found this content valuable, please tell a friend or colleague about us. Also, if you can, please give us a rating and a short review on your podcast listening platform. The more ratings and reviews we have the more people will find us. If you have a question, reach out to us at latitudelegal.com.